Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[tom cat]

After getting my kids on the buss, I get a call from the girl, Dad I need 30$ for band before lunch, CRS happens to 12 year olds same as us old folks. So I drive to the school, get out my drivers license on the way to the door, walk in, find the office, and ask to get 30 dollars to my daughter. The lady at the desk went into panic mode, (I didn't see you come in) as she is pushing the button for help. She gets none. The helper kids get me a envelope for the money I fill it out, put in the money, the desk lady in more panic rushes to the back room and comes back with a man demanding to know how I got in without the desk lady seeing me first. At this point claiming to be a ninga seemed to be a bad idea. He was as panic struck as the desk lady. I showed him the way I came in, the closest door to the walk way from the parking lot, what I thought was the main door. He informed me that the door is locked at all times as I walked back out that door leaving him with a look of Oh shi- on his face. They never saw my drivers license or even asked who I was, My girl got the money and I can not wait for meet the teacher night.

[Chad]

Next time come dressed in cammo and see what kind of
 reaction you get that time.   

[xcaliber]

Next time come dressed in cammo and see what kind of
 reaction you get that time.   

or a long coat!

[Gumbo]

I would just be happy the desk lady was not armed, you may not be telling this story
My wife works in the school district, and I see so many ways to get past security, its not even funny
If someone really wants in they will get in.
Good subject food for thought.

[tom cat]

I had no intention of causing anyone trouble then or now. I am fuzzy and scarry monster does come to mind looking in the mirror first thing in the morning. The problem I have with it is that those people were frightened way beyond what I think is normal for anyone, and they made stupid mistakes one after the other. I did not stick around to test their security as I do not like jail. My oldest son went to that school the first year it opened, my girl just started there and I used the same door a few days ago during registration, The kids involved knew just what to do and acted far more adult than the real adults. The schools of today were not built with school shooters in mind, and keeping them secure needs to be given some real thought.

[tom cat]

I think there should be at least one armed, trained, trusted, person in every school. Some people have no business near a gun.

[hipshot]

I think there should be at least one armed, trained, trusted, person in every school. Some people have no business near a gun.

My thinking on the topic goes against the flow. The school shootings I have looked at have all been fast-moving incidents. The odds of the event being initiated close enough to a school marshal or a campus security officer for him / her to intervene in time are pretty slim. One person can't be everywhere, and uniformed officers are pretty easy to locate and avoid. A lot of folks don't want plainclothes security on campuses; they are afraid that the gun-toting little gangsters might be traumatized by the presence of one of those evil guns on the person of someone not in a uniform (and remember -- always blame the gun; it's never the fault of the shooter). And a plainclothes security officer poses a whole new set of problems when the responding police see an unidentified person in plain clothes running around with a gun.

Although the concept of armed teachers poses its own set of problems, I think that it has one advantage that the other ideas don't. Unfortunately, most people respond to that concept with the impression that those armed teachers are going to leave the classroom and go hunt down the threat. That would be the last thing we want. Instead, when the shooting starts the armed teacher will lock down the classroom, direct the students to cover (if any exists), and assume a position where he / she can address any threat entering the room. The "last line of defense", as it were, with the teacher defending his / her classroom and students. This will only work if several procedures are adhered to: Obviously, the teacher must be proficient with the weapon and at least basically trained in gunfighting tactics. The teacher must be physically and emotionally capable of defending the students and eliminating the threat. The teacher must give forethought to the layout of the area and have a plan; this part is critical. And finally, the teacher must be committed to carrying the weapon at all times and always concealed; there should be no instance where the teacher would remove the weapon from his / her person while classes are in session. Ideally, the students should not know that the teacher is armed. The biggest problem would be that once the novelty of being armed wears off, many teachers would be tempted to take the weapon off and put it in a drawer or a safe; this would defeat the reason for having armed educators present in the first place, and could also make the weapon accessible to unauthorized personnel. The armed teachers would need to be committed to carrying the weapon at all times.

I think that a pretty low percentage of teachers would meet all of the criteria presented, but I also believe that having covertly armed teachers in the classrooms would be the best deterrent, as well as the most effective defense, against school shooters.

[Lucky]

Very well stated hipshot

[Gumbo]

Well stated Jim   

[Drewboy22]

 :agree:Couldn't say it any better if I tried! 

[tom cat]

I am not a law enforcement or school type person. Security is a illusion with a web. Yes a nut with a gun can get into any school, the problem as I see it is there are no common sense measures such as making sure that the rules in place are enforced. If the desk lady is able to direct kids, meet the public, alert security, and do menial work for her supervisor, she surely has time to look at security screens showing every door and parking lot. The one she calls for help should have the same ability as well as the arms to deal with any common threat. Teachers should have a door to lock that will not be kicked in and a alarm to tell them when to use it, the current Pa system comes to mind. Security systems are cheep unless the government is buying it. Herding cats I will leave to school administrators to deal with in their own way, but bear in mind these are the people we trust to turn our children into tax paying citizens of tomorrow.
I have a problem trusting the care of my child, to anyone who is not willing to take a bullet for them. In the world today, just one person willing and able to deal with that, is a rare thing. Education administrators are not typically people I would choose to lay down covering fire, but never having done it myself who am I to say he or she can't. Training works, right, else, why are the kids there to start with. I have called men my captain that I would not trust with a fire cracker, who had the keys to the end of the world. I said, yes sir, he did his job, and we all lived to see Sandy Hook, and know we missed the warnings and lost control at a price.
Will the CIA help the states fund school security through funds from the schools marajuna vending machines?  I have seen fast and furious and I have been sampling some fine moon shine. On this post only.

[MRVTX]

My thinking on the topic goes against the flow. The school shootings I have looked at have all been fast-moving incidents. The odds of the event being initiated close enough to a school marshal or a campus security officer for him / her to intervene in time are pretty slim. One person can't be everywhere, and uniformed officers are pretty easy to locate and avoid. A lot of folks don't want plainclothes security on campuses; they are afraid that the gun-toting little gangsters might be traumatized by the presence of one of those evil guns on the person of someone not in a uniform (and remember -- always blame the gun; it's never the fault of the shooter). And a plainclothes security officer poses a whole new set of problems when the responding police see an unidentified person in plain clothes running around with a gun.

Although the concept of armed teachers poses its own set of problems, I think that it has one advantage that the other ideas don't. Unfortunately, most people respond to that concept with the impression that those armed teachers are going to leave the classroom and go hunt down the threat. That would be the last thing we want. Instead, when the shooting starts the armed teacher will lock down the classroom, direct the students to cover (if any exists), and assume a position where he / she can address any threat entering the room. The "last line of defense", as it were, with the teacher defending his / her classroom and students. This will only work if several procedures are adhered to: Obviously, the teacher must be proficient with the weapon and at least basically trained in gunfighting tactics. The teacher must be physically and emotionally capable of defending the students and eliminating the threat. The teacher must give forethought to the layout of the area and have a plan; this part is critical. And finally, the teacher must be committed to carrying the weapon at all times and always concealed; there should be no instance where the teacher would remove the weapon from his / her person while classes are in session. Ideally, the students should not know that the teacher is armed. The biggest problem would be that once the novelty of being armed wears off, many teachers would be tempted to take the weapon off and put it in a drawer or a safe; this would defeat the reason for having armed educators present in the first place, and could also make the weapon accessible to unauthorized personnel. The armed teachers would need to be committed to carrying the weapon at all times.

I think that a pretty low percentage of teachers would meet all of the criteria presented, but I also believe that having covertly armed teachers in the classrooms would be the best deterrent, as well as the most effective defense, against school shooters.

...until one of those armed teachers decides to go postal and becomes the shooter...

We've seen crazy crap happen all the time, so a situation like this can happen.  I'm certainly not against guns, and I really need to get Lori and I through the CHL classes, but in the world we live in, we just never know what can happen.

[Drewboy22]

...until one of those armed teachers decides to go postal and becomes the shooter...

I can understand that thought...  However could we not "What if" every scenario into a bad thing?  "What if a cop goes carzy and starts shooting people." I think that with the right Training and background a teacher could be what saves your/my child.  We already trust these teachers with the most important thing in our lives, dont you think they should have a way to protect them?

.02,

Drew

[xcaliber]

[quote [/quote]

...until one of those armed teachers decides to go postal and becomes the shooter...

We've seen crazy crap happen all the time, so a situation like this can happen.  I'm certainly not against guns, and I really need to get Lori and I through the CHL classes, but in the world we live in, we just never know what can happen.
[/quote]

I could see that happen. Both daughters and wife work in the school system. The teachers are expected to not only teach the 3 "R" but in many cases Life skills that should be taught at home. Disicpline- forget it.Not allowed. It's a shame that teachers are now expected to not only try to educate these kids but in many cases, raise them. This " no child left behind " is crap. Some need to be left behind for the good of the others.I get mad when I hear politicians say the teachers need to be held accountable. How about holding parents accountable. Now,we want the educators to become armed guards. My family all own firearms and regularly go to the range but  the necessity of armed teachers doesn't say much for our society.

[hipshot]

"...until one of those armed teachers decides to go postal and becomes the shooter..."

And that's part of the price we pay for our freedom.  We could allow the government to closely regulate our lives and our possessions, which would give a lot of people a false sense of security. But people will still go postal, and we would be powerless to protect ourselves. With our current freedoms, we have the option to protect ourselves. The gun control morons want us to believe that if we surrender our guns the crooks will all surrender theirs. Does anybody here really believe that would happen? The gun control morons want us to believe that the crooks don't really want to hurt us, and if we just nicely hand over our car / wallet / cell phone / debit card / stereo / etc., they will simply take our property and leave without harming us. Does anybody here really believe that would happen?

Let's say that twenty cops are in a room in the center of the campus. They're geared up and poised for action, ready to go at the first indication of trouble. A lone shooter, armed with a single handgun and a bag full of loaded magazines, enters the school and walks into the first classroom, shooting and reloading as he / she goes. Then on to the next classroom...... Or the shooter walks in to the cafeteria during lunch, or the auditorium during an assembly..........

How many people can that assailant shoot, before the cops who are already on campus can get to the scene and eliminate the threat? There would be a lot of bodies on the ground. And in a great many schools in this country, there would be a much longer response time while the officers drive to the school. Then, on arrival, they have to determine -- through mass confusion and panic -- where the threat is and move to it and neutralize it. Then they have to determine who is the bad guy, and how many bad guys there are, before the campus can be deemed secure. Imagine yourself as a responding officer: you are moving toward the threat, focused on eliminating it before anyone else is hurt. The shooter(s) are somewhere ahead, and you can hear shooting and screaming, and you move as fast as you can toward the carnage. As you do so you are passing kids -- kids the same age as your kids, or maybe even one of your kids -- lying on the floor bleeding, crying for help. But you have to ignore them for now, and push toward the shooting to minimize the carnage.

Think you might be wishing one of those teachers had been armed and prepared?

There's no quick and easy, convenient answer. There is NO WAY to prevent violence; we've always had to live with it and we always will. Any Utopian dreamer who tells you that a law will prevent violence is in serious need of a reality check.