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[bluestreak]

Update gentlemen or ladies. After testing as I was instructed to do, with the volt meter on the pos and neg, cranking with full throttle I got anywhere between 9 volts on 2 tests, and 11 volts on one test. So I removed the battery and checked with a volt meter/load tester. It shows to be good, until I hit the load button, at which point it shows as weak. So I hooked it up to the trickle charger again. As I stated before, this is a relatively young battery, as I replaced the last one several months ago, not years. Not many miles on this one.

So at this point, after trickle charging, should I assume I should hook it back up to the load tester, push the button and see where I'm at? The last battery, failed at that point which is the reason I have this battery.

Are you all still thinking bad battery, or cell? Or solenoid, or compression relief valve?

BTW, thanks for hanging with me...I hope you don't think I'm not grateful for the support, because the fact is, I am! Confused, or purplexed aside.
Ken

Ok............now you’re getting somewhere. 
If you're convinced the battery test was valid, you've eliminated the battery.  If not, try someone else’s battery from a known good starting bike to confirm the battery is not your problem.  Once you've convinced yourself the battery is good, your left with testing other components until you find the problem.

You can eliminate suspect electrical components very easily sometimes just by jumping around them.  If you think the starter button is the problem, jump around it. Refer back to the video you posted for this test.  Disconnect the yellow wire from the solenoid,  With the key on and the throttle wide open, apply positive 12 volt power to the yellow wire contact terminal on the starter solenoid directly at the solenoid and see how it cranks.  Use a jumper wire about 24 inches long to do this.  After removing the yellow OEM wire off the solenoid terminal, I would connect a 12 gauge jumper wire firmly to the terminal first and then touch it to the positive battery terminal to commence cranking.  It will only need to be touched/ connected to the positive terminal for about 3-4 seconds.  Only long enough to determine the engine cranking speed and HOW it's cranking.  You could hold it on there longer if you want and will not hurt anything to do that (until the battery dies) but it would be of no value.  It will spark a little when you touch the wire to the battery post so don't be surprised.  Just make sure you jam it to the post firmly to lessen the spark issue and make a good connection.  You won't get shocked but I would wear a glove or use a tool to firmly connect the wire to the terminal because the spark may burn your finger if you are tenitive at trying to make the connection.  Personally........ I would hold the actual metal wire with needle nose pliers and use the pliers nose tip to make contact on to the terminal.  If it cranks at normal speed, then the button was your problem.  If it's still cranking very slowly, the fault is elsewhere.

If that test proves the starter button OK, since you’re in the area of the solenoid, I'd check the resistance across the solenoid main terminals.  The ones that the starter draws power across.  BEFORE you do anything to perform this test, disconnect the negative and positive terminals off the battery to prevent and accidental grounding.  Then disconnect both large wires off the solenoid.  Tape the bare end, and relocate the wire coming from the battery to the solenoid, away from the frame or other components.  Reconnect the battery cables to the battery.  Use you VOM to measure the Ohm resistance value across the big wire terminals when the starter button is pushed and the solenoid is engaged.  This will tell you if there is too much resistance across the solenoid.  This test is worth checking since you’re in the area but I don't expect you'll find it to be your problem, but since your there, check it to eliminate it as the cause.  It's less hassel to check this than a compression test.  Always check the easy things first.

If the solenoid checks out, do the compression test as I have suggested.  Do it specifically as per the shop manual and then do it again with ALL plugs removed and then again with only one cylinders plugs removed at a time.  If would be very beneficial to check the cranking speed of both tests if you have a tach that can detect crank speed at the crank. This will tell you if either the de-compression device or the starter is at fault. Record all of your readings for latter review and comparison because you won't remember latter accurately what they were.

Let us know what you find.

[bluestreak]

Mike, I don't know if his starter switch is bad. But mine was arc burned and it caused it to drag and intermittently lose contact . I cleaned it and fixed it. You may argue with my switch if you like, but I was there......................

For the benifit of the OP and the rest of us.............Please answer the questions I've asked in my previous post.  What were the symptoms of your starter button issue...............#1, #2  or #3?


Jim..........I'm not here to argue with you or your switch, so to that end, help me understand something. 
When you say "intermittently lose contact" are you implying:

#1
"Every time" you press and continuously hold the starter button, the switch internally and intermittently loses electrical contact while your holding the button and causes the engine to crank-stop- and then crank again?
 OR 
#2
Do you feel it was causing your engine to just "crank slowly" every time you pushed it?
 OR
#3
Sometimes when you pushed the button, it cranked the engine and then other times you pushed the button, it did not. This is how I'm assuming your bike was acting.  I'm I correct?  My VTX switch had this same issue as #3 and this is the most common starter switch symptom VTX owners have with the switch.
 

[Gumbo]

Never say die Mikey, Never say die 

Like a good cur dog on a pig 

[alejandro1800vtx]

Never say die Mikey, Never say die 

Like a good cur dog on a pig 

gumbo please dont post mindless animated pics. Thats reserved for reddragon 

[Gumbo]

Never say die Mikey, Never say die 

Like a good cur dog on a pig 

gumbo please dont post mindless animated pics. Thats reserved for reddragon 

One minute here I never said I wasn't mindless

[hipshot]

Mike, I actually had two different factors causing the problem. First, the travel on the switch got to where it exceeded the contact points. In other words, if I pushed it all the way to the stop, the switch was open and it wouldn't crank. The other issue was arc burns on the contacts. As the switch was pressed and released it would intermittently open and close. If you stopped it in a sweet spot, it'd crank like it oughta. If you stopped it in a bad spot, the switch would be open and it'd quit cranking. The effect, as the switch was pressed and released, was that the starter would engage and disengage, cycling back and forth quickly. It would sound like it was cranking slowly, and at times it wouldn't crank. After I cleaned the contacts and reassembled the switch, and learned not to push the button all the way to the stop, it behaved "normally" and cranked the way it should.

[bluestreak]

Mike, I actually had two different factors causing the problem. First, the travel on the switch got to where it exceeded the contact points. In other words, if I pushed it all the way to the stop, the switch was open and it wouldn't crank. The other issue was arc burns on the contacts. As the switch was pressed and released it would intermittently open and close. If you stopped it in a sweet spot, it'd crank like it oughta. If you stopped it in a bad spot, the switch would be open and it'd quit cranking. The effect, as the switch was pressed and released, was that the starter would engage and disengage, cycling back and forth quickly. It would sound like it was cranking slowly, and at times it wouldn't crank. After I cleaned the contacts and reassembled the switch, and learned not to push the button all the way to the stop, it behaved "normally" and cranked the way it should.

Jim, thanks for responding and clearing that up.
OK.  The way I understand it as you describe it, when the switch would malfunction, it was operating like scenario #3 more than the other scenarios.  It would either crank at normal speed or it wouldn't crank at all.  That's the same symptoms mine (and most of the other VTX owners on the main board) have when the switch messes up.  Contrary to this most common symptom of failure, the OPs bike exhibits symptoms more like #2 because it's just cranking slowly until the battery voltage falls to a point the starter solinoid opens and cranking then stops.  That's why I don't feel it's the handle bar switch.  If he performs the tests I suggested, we'll know for sure where the fault lies.
 

[hipshot]

Mike, I actually had two different factors causing the problem. First, the travel on the switch got to where it exceeded the contact points. In other words, if I pushed it all the way to the stop, the switch was open and it wouldn't crank. The other issue was arc burns on the contacts. As the switch was pressed and released it would intermittently open and close. If you stopped it in a sweet spot, it'd crank like it oughta. If you stopped it in a bad spot, the switch would be open and it'd quit cranking. The effect, as the switch was pressed and released, was that the starter would engage and disengage, cycling back and forth quickly. It would sound like it was cranking slowly, and at times it wouldn't crank. After I cleaned the contacts and reassembled the switch, and learned not to push the button all the way to the stop, it behaved "normally" and cranked the way it should.

[bluestreak]

Mike, I actually had two different factors causing the problem. First, the travel on the switch got to where it exceeded the contact points. In other words, if I pushed it all the way to the stop, the switch was open and it wouldn't crank. The other issue was arc burns on the contacts. As the switch was pressed and released it would intermittently open and close. If you stopped it in a sweet spot, it'd crank like it oughta. If you stopped it in a bad spot, the switch would be open and it'd quit cranking. The effect, as the switch was pressed and released, was that the starter would engage and disengage, cycling back and forth quickly. It would sound like it was cranking slowly, and at times it wouldn't crank. After I cleaned the contacts and reassembled the switch, and learned not to push the button all the way to the stop, it behaved "normally" and cranked the way it should.

I can see why it "sounds" as though it was cranking slower when you have a defective button because it is.  In reality what is happening is that the cranking process is actually just "starting and stopping" the whole time your holding the starter button in because the crank is accelerating and decelerating during the process and never gets to full cranking speed.  If the button loses internal contact as the crank is accelerating, the solenoid drops out and the crank loses inertia and slows.  When the button reconnects on a slowing crank, the solenoid/starter then re-engages and the crank has to accelerate to increase its speed to "sound normal" again but it may not get to full cranking speed if the button loses contact before that occurs.  During this unusual cranking scenario, the cranking speed IS slower than normal full cranking speed and sounds labored until it gets up to speed.  The first couple of cranking revolutions on an 1800 is rather slow, as the crank comes up to speed, until it developes full speed inertia.  The starter is having to accelerate that 52 lbs crankshaft (plus the weight of the transmission) up to the normal cranking speed of about 350 rpm.  I agree that a defective starter button, that intermittently and randomly loses contact during the cranking process, could make it sound and actually crank slower because it never acutually gets to normal cranking speed in the first place.  I in that scenario it should have an uneven sound or cadence in respect to the "cranking cycle speed" due to the random/intermittent connecting of the starter button.

Conversely to the above scenario............The OPs cranking cycle is an even cadence loping sound signature and is not random.  In fact it is VERY consistent and rhythmic which tells me the problem is some place other than the switch.  The cadence is similar to what I would expect to hear with an issue of too high compression due to a faulty de-compressor.  The crank seems to be losing speed every time a piston come to TDC.  
That could be because of:
- Too high compression due to a faulty de-compressor
- The fact the starter is weak and can't spin the engine up even against normal compression
- A weak battery (which he feels he's eliminated)
- Some internal mechanical drag which causes the rhythmic cadence.  I can't think of what that might be though.  

He mentioned someone said the valves may be too tight.  I totally disagree with that as the possiable cause.  If they were in time but just too tight with no clearance, it would be down on power or back firing through the intake.  If they were out of time and so tight so as to cause a drag, it would be because they were impacting the pistons and it would not be running.............. for very long and that's not happening.

Further testing as suggested will pin point the problem.  He just needs to do it.

[bluestreak]

Update gentlemen or ladies. After testing as I was instructed to do, with the volt meter on the pos and neg, cranking with full throttle I got anywhere between 9 volts on 2 tests, and 11 volts on one test. So I removed the battery and checked with a volt meter/load tester. It shows to be good, until I hit the load button, at which point it shows as weak. So I hooked it up to the trickle charger again. As I stated before, this is a relatively young battery, as I replaced the last one several months ago, not years. Not many miles on this one.

So at this point, after trickle charging, should I assume I should hook it back up to the load tester, push the button and see where I'm at? The last battery, failed at that point which is the reason I have this battery.

Are you all still thinking bad battery, or cell? Or solenoid, or compression relief valve?

BTW, thanks for hanging with me...I hope you don't think I'm not grateful for the support, because the fact is, I am! Confused, or purplexed aside.
Ken

Ken

After again reading this post................I still question if the battery is good because of your statement about the the load tester showing it as weak when tested.  If it has been tested with the correct draw down load (and that's a function of wheather the mechanic really knows what he's doing with the tester and set it correctly to your batteries amp rating) and it does test weak AND your bike IS cranking as slow as it is...................you have to question wheather the battery is good or not.  I would.  Replacing the battey will be your cheapest remedy if the testing I've suggested doesn't point us in another direction.  Just because the battery has only a few miles on it doesn't mean it's not bad.  the wrong type of charger can ruin a battery very quickly.  Your bikes rectifier may even have damaged a good battery if it's defective.  That can determined in a simple test if/when we need to do that.  Buying a new battery is what I would do if testing doesn't lead us in another direction.  

What kind of trickel charger are you using?
Who makes it?
Cheap trickel chargers can damage a good battery if they are not the voltage and current limiting type.

Battery Tenders are great maintance chargers, won't hurt your battery and they are cheap.

[SilverStreak]

Update: after the load test and a fresh trickle charge I reinserted the battery. Started quickly and crisply a few times before I left the garage. Rode it to my business, about 30 minute ride with a short freeway drive. After getting what I needed from my business, I got back on, which mean it sat just a matter of a few minutes. It sounded like it wasn't going to start. Shouldn't it be well charged after riding it?
Ken

[alejandro1800vtx]

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD change the battery!!!!!   last post on the thread  

you have a bad battery plain and simple, batteries go bad, and some ones come bad from factory, go werever you got it, ask your money back or a exchange, quit making your self crazy, im to the point of riding up there and let you use my battery   you need 12 amps at starting point and no drop you turning a twin cylinder engine that's  200cc bigger than a ford focus with a small battery, do your self a favor get a yuasa battery from dealer with a year free exchange and be worry free. No needs for more testing and crap, you charge the battery and is fine for few hours then wont have enpugh juice to turn the engine <<<<<< Battery is KAPUT

 Rectifier is not your issue if rectifier was bad your bike would bough down wen riding once battery is drain. If bike dosen't quit on you while riding rectifier is OK

[SilverStreak]

Ok fine. I bought from Woods Fun Center. I was going to do the swap with David who just bought a new one but we can't get together until after next.

[bluestreak]

Update: after the load test and a fresh trickle charge I reinserted the battery. Started quickly and crisply a few times before I left the garage. Rode it to my business, about 30 minute ride with a short freeway drive. After getting what I needed from my business, I got back on, which mean it sat just a matter of a few minutes. It sounded like it wasn't going to start. Shouldn't it be well charged after riding it?
Ken

Yes the battery should recover in just a few minutes of riding.............if the battery is truely in good condition and the rectifier is good.
A quick test on the rectifier is to ride for a few miles to make sure the battery has been recoverd/ re-charged, don't turn it off, and then check the voltage across the battery terminals at idle and at 3500 rpm. It should be at or above 14 vdc at both speeds.  If it is........... your alt/rectifier system is charging the battery fine. If your getting 14 vdc when it's running and it's hard to crank after it sets, especially even just after a little while, there's an internal short in the battery causing it to drain too quickly. 
Sounds like you have a battery problem dude.

[SilverStreak]

Well I was shocked a little while after posting my last post, David from Manor showed up at my business with one of his brand new batteries to try out. I guess then we'll know if I'm a stubborn a hole or what. Should be able to check it out later today or early evening.
Ken