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[bluestreak]

The kill switch was my issue.  

Kill switch and starter button problems on the VTX manifest themselves in one of two ways...........either they work or they don't.  They are in the start "control" circuit, not the starter motors "power" circuit.  If the starter is cranking (and his is, albeit slowly) it's not the kill switch or starter button.  By virtue of the fact that the starter motor is spinning, the kill switch and starter buttons have accomplished their tasks.

When the 1800’s kill switch is faulty, the bike's fuel injection circuit and start motor control circuit (to the solenoid) are cut.  So it will not crank (at all) OR get any fuel (at all).  The kill switch either works or it doesn’t.

The 1800 starter button is a dual contact, double pole switch and does two things when pushed.  First.......... it interrupts the headlight relay circuit and stops the current draw to the headlight, so the starter gets full system voltage while cranking.  Second.............Then the starter solinoid circuit is completed which spins the starter.  

When a starter button is faulty, most of the time the two following things can happen, together or separately.  

•   Upon pushing the button, the head light will go out and the starter motor will not engage at all.  This is due to corrosion of the switch contact points of the starter motor circuit which is the power supply to the starter solenoid.  IMHO………..The switch contact points are under rated for the amperage draw in the start control circuit.  I say this due to the switches frequency to fail by evidence on these forums and on my bike as well.  This is a somewhat common problem on the 1800. When mine failed, it was intermittently not working.  I eventually took it apart and cleaned/filed the contact points.  

•   The bike may start but the headlight may not come back on because the switch is stuck or corrosion does not allow voltage and current to flow across the contact points of the headlight relay circuit. This is a dangerous situation because the operator has no indication his headlight is not on after the bike has started and is running.  I haven’t had the problem since I fixed mine, but ever since having the problem, I now check my headlight to make sure it comes back on after starting the bike.  

[bluestreak]

The kill switch was my issue.  

So it effected the cranking? Mine cranks then stops, then starts cranking again wiithout releasing the starter button.

With all due respect..............Your bike NEVER stops cranking.  It's just cranking very slowly the entire time the starter button is engauged.  It slows down almost to a stop when a piston approaches top dead center due to the unusally high compression it's working against.  This extreamly slow cranking is very hard on your starter and battery.  Don't do it anymore than you have to or you'll be replacing them soon.  Take ALL of the spark plugs out and spin it over to prove the decompressor is at fault.  If it's an electrical issue due to resistance, it will crank slowly with the plugs removed just like it does when they are installed.  You should be able to determine which decompressor is at fault by alternatly removing the front and rear plugs and trying the test.
After listening to the sound clip again.........It sounds like only one decompressor is stuck by vertue of the cranking candence sound.  The 1800 has a dual pin crank 256 degrees (if I remember correctly) out of phase.

[bluestreak]

I know you just had the top end redone, could it be slightly out of time and not allowing the decompresser to function properly? the video you showed me is exacly what happens to my friends Harley when he forgets to engage the decompressors on start up.

Has this bike ever run since the rebuild??? 
I was under the impression it was running fine and the starting problem just came up one day when trying to start it.

[Luckys Lover]

Everytime I see this post, I think "Push it down to Johnny Cheese's and fix it." 

[SilverStreak]

Everytime I see this post, I think "Push it down to Johnny Cheese's and fix it."  

I could be wrong, I was once before, but I thought his biz is more about dyno tuning pc3's. Plus if it turned out to be something like a solenoid, I can buy one and replace it. Since my budget doesn't currently have any excess income due to a new start up biz I have. JC is a little farther than a push to also.

And yes the bike has been running mostly real good after the top end was redone. The slow cranking just got worse and worse and was doing it before the work.

[teXan]

Did you ever get your bike started?  I have a 1300 not an 1800 so we can't really compare everything on the 2...but I live close to you, and I know a little about engines, I am not promising I would be any help but I would be willing to put a second set of eyes on it for you,
I have all kinds of tools, a voltmeter, and 20 years working on electronics repair, I can smoke test stuff with the best of them.


Johnny's shop is right off of red bud and 79 very near walmart, I have been there a few times, he does do more than dyno's  (at least the last time I was there) he always has bikes torn apart in there, really nice guy too and would probably offfer some advice.

Anyway...should be around this weekend or could try sooner if you wanted, I live in Hutto, so pretty much down the road depeding on what part of Round Rock you live in.

Paul

[SilverStreak]

Paul, yes I have gotten it started, but it hasn't given me enough confidence to do a real ride out of town. It is still doing the slow or zero crank, but has been starting within 1 - 2 seconds. Good enough for me to going on some local errand rides. Last night it made me worry again down in Austin on a sluggish crank taking a good 2 seconds of slow crank and then fired up good, better than previous to me making that video.

I work everyday but Sundays, this being Super Bowel Sunday could be a problem. In the mid to late morning I am free in any case. A friend from here, David in Manor, and I were talking about getting together also, but nothing confirmed, and before realizing it's big game day. I will call him later.

[teXan]

I can't rmemeber if you said you replaced the battery, but that sounds like a battery to me, mine was doing similar things for a while and a new battery fixed it....anyway, would be willing to meet up sometime if needed.

[Cardieu]

check that starter switch, sometimes the contacts go to crap and voila..had a problem with my 1800 not cranking, found this to be my prob, replaced and yet to have another issue. also check wiring on any accessories maybe attached to battery

alex, south atx

[bluestreak]

Paul, yes I have gotten it started, but it hasn't given me enough confidence to do a real ride out of town. It is still doing the slow or zero crank, but has been starting within 1 - 2 seconds. Good enough for me to going on some local errand rides. Last night it made me worry again down in Austin on a sluggish crank taking a good 2 seconds of slow crank and then fired up good, better than previous to me making that video.

I work everyday but Sundays, this being Super Bowel Sunday could be a problem. In the mid to late morning I am free in any case. A friend from here, David in Manor, and I were talking about getting together also, but nothing confirmed, and before realizing it's big game day. I will call him later.

Have you performed any of the tests suggested or do you just plan to leave as it is and finally ruin the starter?

[SilverStreak]

I thought I relied already on my progress. When I had the meter and performing the tests from the solenoid, the bettery sideof the solenoid showed the battery had about 13 volts. When I was trying to check the starter post I had my wife push the starter button while I contacted the meter to the negative and starter post, and bam the thing started up faster than I months! It shocked me, and has been starting up since then. Within 1 to 2 seconds so I don't believe I could being damage, but still inducing confidence to ride out of town.

Paul, yes I have gotten it started, but it hasn't given me enough confidence to do a real ride out of town. It is still doing the slow or zero crank, but has been starting within 1 - 2 seconds. Good enough for me to going on some local errand rides. Last night it made me worry again down in Austin on a sluggish crank taking a good 2 seconds of slow crank and then fired up good, better than previous to me making that video.

I work everyday but Sundays, this being Super Bowel Sunday could be a problem. In the mid to late morning I am free in any case. A friend from here, David in Manor, and I were talking about getting together also, but nothing confirmed, and before realizing it's big game day. I will call him later.

Have you performed any of the tests suggested or do you just plan to leave as it is and finally ruin the starter?

[hipshot]

FYI, johnnycheese is an extremely competent mechanic; his talent and intuitive skills as a mechanic are the foundation for his competence at dynotuning. And he won't BS you or hand you inflated numbers on your bike when he's done, either.

As far as the starter switch, it can indeed cause the problem you have described. As I stated earlier in this thread, you may want to check the contacts and the travel on the switch. As the switch wears it can sustain arc burns on the contact surfaces; the switch can also wear to the point that the contacts travel past their contact points. In effect, as you depress the starter button all the way down the switch opens and it quits cranking. As you release the button contact is reestablished and it momentarily cranks again. Those arc burns on the contacts will have the same effect as the button is depressed and released. It's an easy fix and well worth checking out. I've seen it happen more than once, and the Honda starter switch is notoriously underengineered for such a (mostly) otherwise well-engineered machine. It takes little time and effort to check, and it may well solve your problem.

[bluestreak]

I thought I relied already on my progress. When I had the meter and performing the tests from the solenoid, the bettery sideof the solenoid showed the battery had about 13 volts. When I was trying to check the starter post I had my wife push the starter button while I contacted the meter to the negative and starter post, and bam the thing started up faster than I months! It shocked me, and has been starting up since then. Within 1 to 2 seconds so I don't believe I could being damage, but still inducing confidence to ride out of town.

Paul, yes I have gotten it started, but it hasn't given me enough confidence to do a real ride out of town. It is still doing the slow or zero crank, but has been starting within 1 - 2 seconds. Good enough for me to going on some local errand rides. Last night it made me worry again down in Austin on a sluggish crank taking a good 2 seconds of slow crank and then fired up good, better than previous to me making that video.

I work everyday but Sundays, this being Super Bowel Sunday could be a problem. In the mid to late morning I am free in any case. A friend from here, David in Manor, and I were talking about getting together also, but nothing confirmed, and before realizing it's big game day. I will call him later.

Have you performed any of the tests suggested or do you just plan to leave as it is and finally ruin the starter?

No offense intended...........but if you don't do a meaningful test...........you will not get meaningful results and you learn nothing. 
Perform the tests as I described them and report back what you find.  We can go from there.
What was the purpose of checking the voltage where you did?
What did you expect to learn from that test?

[bluestreak]

FYI, johnnycheese is an extremely competent mechanic; his talent and intuitive skills as a mechanic are the foundation for his competence at dynotuning. And he won't BS you or hand you inflated numbers on your bike when he's done, either.

As far as the starter switch, it can indeed cause the problem you have described. As I stated earlier in this thread, you may want to check the contacts and the travel on the switch. As the switch wears it can sustain arc burns on the contact surfaces; the switch can also wear to the point that the contacts travel past their contact points. In effect, as you depress the starter button all the way down the switch opens and it quits cranking. As you release the button contact is reestablished and it momentarily cranks again. Those arc burns on the contacts will have the same effect as the button is depressed and released. It's an easy fix and well worth checking out. I've seen it happen more than once, and the Honda starter switch is notoriously underengineered for such a (mostly) otherwise well-engineered machine. It takes little time and effort to check, and it may well solve your problem.

I beg to differ. 
The switch either makes contact or it doesn’t.  As I stated previously:
Kill switch and starter button problems on the VTX manifest themselves in one of two ways...........either they work or they don't.  They are in the start "control" circuit, not the starter motors "power" circuit.  If the starter is cranking (and his is, albeit slowly) it's not the kill switch or starter button.  By virtue of the fact that the starter motor is spinning, the kill switch and starter buttons have accomplished their tasks.  The fact the starter is turning the engine over intermittently slowly has NOTHING to do with the starter button.

His bike IS cranking (albeit slowly and only at a specific point during the rotation cycle).............SO by evidence of that fact, the starter button switch is fine and doing its job.  The engine cranking speed is very slow due to drag (too much compression at TDC is my guess) ...........but we won't know that for sure until that test is done will we?   Listen to the video. The engine doesn't cease to crank and then begin to crank again.  The cranking speed is continuous but cranking speed is slowed at the point of rotation only when the piston comes to top dead center.  Listen to the video.   

The starter button is not the problem.  All switches of this type, that have contact points, produce burn marks from normal service and evidence of such is not detrimental to their operation.  If the load/current was to get so high as to actually burn and melt off material on the points, the resulting slag oxide will produce too much resistance across the connection and they will not conduct (at all) and the solenoid will not pull in.  At that point........the starter would not engage..........at all.  They either work or they don't.  There is no “maybe” or “a little contact” in a control circuit.  That’s like saying your “a little pregnant”.  If they make contact, the starter engages.  If they don't, the starter will not engage.  His starter IS working so the button is fine.  This is a control circuit, NOT a load circuit. 

It appears from the sound signature to be a internal drag issue but it could also be in the starter itself due to a worn commutator or brushes. If there is higher resistance in the starter from these problems, it cannot develop the torque to spin the engine through TDC fast enough.  I really don't think that's the problem though.

We won’t know what the problem is if definitive testing is not done.  Do the tests.  We can’t help you otherwise.

[SilverStreak]

The slower cranking issue was starting before the top end was done, so I wouldn't think they did or didn't do something to cause the problem, just being honest. It seemed to get gradually worse afterwards. It would always start up until the time I made that video. I work 6 days a week, and know how nor do I own a compression guage. Either this Sunday or the next, depending on weather I will be getting together with David in Manor who has more wrench knowledge than I. I will report back what we figure out when we do. Thanks to everyone offering helpful suggestions.

If it is a compression relief valve, what's involved to fix it and what kind of money you think? Would the engine need to be pulled or just the valve covers?
Ken

Just a guess, but see if you have arc burns on the starter switch contacts.

That has been my worry. Don't want to chase my tail replacing stuff that wasn't the root of the problem.

With all due respect...........Stop chasing an elelctircal issue.  That's not your problem.  You said you had the battery checked and it checked out fine but I didn't suspect it in the first place by verture of "how" it was cranking.  If it was the battery, the solinoid would drop in and out and you'd hear the tell tale clicking sound of that process which is caused by a low voltage to the solinoids starting control circuit by verture of the starter dragging the system voltage down.  Solinoids, kill switches and starter buttons will not produce the slow cranking problem your bike is having.
So........... Do a compression test to rule out a stuck compression release.
For your sake I hope I'm wrong and I stand to be corrected.................because your not going to like to hear what it takes to fix the de-compression device.
Someone stated you just had the top end done.  Did they take the decompression device off the cam?