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[icopus]

Icopus, the reason for traffic regulations IS safety.

And safety is an excellent, sound reason for the regulation, sure.  But enforcement was lacking on those regulations that didn't most cost effectively generate the most revenue.  Hence, these new ways of LE.  Please, hipshot, - that's ALL I meant to say.

I don't know what area of LEO you are, but answer yourself (and for fellow LEO you know) honestly these questions -
Let's say your duty tomorrow is traffic.
1.  If given the choice, would you rather run radar or watch a dangerous intersection (especially if it's near a financial institution)?  How about your fellow officers?
2.  Which traffic citations generate the most revenue?
3.  Which traffic laws are the easiest and most cost effective to enforce (ie: 'see' the infraction, catch him, and write him up)?
4.  Which traffic laws are LEO most ask to enforce?
5.  Which traffic violations are the most fun to enforce and why? (I will give you it's getting more and more dangerous)

Tough questions to answer completely honestly, but there is no need to answer these questions publicly on this forum.  I already know most, if not all of your answers.  I had a couple of friends who were LEO.

Here's something else to consider.  25-30 years ago, I used to see officers directing traffic around any traffic congested area, especially accidents.  They don't do that anymore.  And not because they got better things to do.  No, they would rather stand around the accident site ignoring the mounting traffic congestion or let other LEO attend the accident while they run radar on the 12 lane freeway on a bright, sunny, and light traffic Sunday morning.  I've seen both!

Damn.  I didn't even mean to start another subject, but since I've already typed it..... 

Be safe, hipshot.

[hipshot]

First, let me say that I hate working traffic. I would rather catch burglars anyway, but the reasons I hate working traffic are that most people today react to a traffic stop as if it was a personal assault. After years of listening to lies, threats, and plain old bullshit from morons who are WAY off base but convinced they are right, and listening to people try to convince me for twenty minutes that they are the dumbest SOB who ever drew a breath but become offended when I finally agree with them, I'd rather just avoid the whole disgusting show. There are a lot of people in this world who just can't learn. They drive stupid on a daily basis, and every time they get caught they make a huge production out of it. They whine about being picked on, they whine about being lied on, and they always show up in court with a truckload of "witnesses" who weren't there. After awhile you just get tired of hearing it all, and you begin to wonder if there is anybody left in the world who will actually be accountable for his own actions.

I'll answer your questions honestly, but you need to bear in mind that cops are people; we all have our likes and dislikes. The cops I know who like working traffic tend to focus on different types of offenses. A friend whose mother was killed by a DWI tends to focus on DWIs. Another guy I know withessed a bad CMV wreck and he focuses on commercial rigs. Some folks like to run radar, some like working intersections, and some love to hammer tailgaters. We're all different.

1.  Would I rather run radar or watch a dangerous intersection? As I said above, neither. But I've done both, and have no preference. What many people don't understand is that many intersections are very difficult to cover for a patrol unit. There is often no place to set up, and in high-volume traffic there is often no way to safely get out into traffic after a violator. LIDAR and working off a motorcycle make it more feasible, but too many intersections just cannot be worked due to the layout and the traffic. The same often applies to running radar; you need a safe place to pull up and shoot, and a way to safely get out into traffic to catch a violator. Do this: evaluate some of the intersections you encounter daily from an enforcement standpoint. Figure out where you would set up, and pull in there. Can you see what you need to see? Are you impeding traffic in and out of a business/ side street/residence? Can you SAFELY pull out into traffic to catch a violator who is in the middle of a pack of cars? Can the oncoming traffic see you pulling out in time to avoid running over you? These are just some of the considerations that must be evaluated, and for a great many intersections there is no feasible way to safely work red light/stop sign violators safely from a patrol unit. We all know that the first time a LE vehicle causes or is involved in a collision there, the media is going to make a huge production out of every real or imagined enforcement safety issue with that situation, and the lawsuits will come rolling in. And remember, the bean counters want PRODUCTIVITY; you can't sit on an intersection all day for a couple of ducks. Your supervisor or chief is going to have to account for how you spend your time to a bean counter somewhere.

2. Which citations generate the most revenue? I have no idea. If I had to pick one I'd say speed, because that seems to be what all the municipalities focus on. Few cops ever have to consider that part of the process, and really don't care.

3. Easiest and most cost-effective to enforce? I'd guess that would depend entirely on where and when. If you're trying to garner compliance with the laws, which is the mission (believe it or not, cops on the beat really don't care what kind of revenue they are generating; that's a council issue, and the cop is just trying to get compliance) then speed and red light cameras make the most sense. If the public knows a red light camera is working an intersection 24/7, and that the citation will stand, most of them will try not to run that light. If they know that a cop will be watching it sometimes, many will take the chance. If a cop is there ALL of the time, you have the same effect as a camera (actually better; the cop's visible). So, is it cheaper to put cameras on all of the bad intersections, or to hire cops to sit on those intersections for 8 hours at a time? You do the math. And remember, some of those intersections will be difficult, if not impossible, for a cop to work at the target times.

4.  Asked most to enforce? I'd say speed from the governments, and a combination of speed, stop signs, and red lights from the public. Although not technically traffic, the public complaint quickly moving up the list is vehicles playing those idiotic loud thumping bass speakers. Those assholes all need to be headshot and left in a ditch beside their burning cars. When I worked nights I was awakened by those assholes daily, and we get them through the subdivision at 2 and 3 in the morning regularly. I recall reading an article BY A PROSTITUTE (what y'all call lawyers) proclaiming the right of the citizens to subject us to that noise, and how law enforcement is out of line in their harassment of these honest citizens who are merely trying to enjoy their freedom.

5.  Most fun to enforce? For me, none of them. Nobody wants to be wrong, and nobody wants to be responsible for his/her "mistakes." The American way -- blame the system. It's somebody else's fault that you're speeding. It's somebody else's fault you ran the red light. It's somebody else's fault you didn't stop after you hit that car. After awhile you just grow weary of the bullshit, the lies, the accusations, the threats, and just generally people at their worst. Give me a burglar any day.

Hmmmmm, directing traffic? Not sure what to tell you about that. I've done it whenever it needed doing -- from MY point of view. That doesn't mean that the dumbass who feels he needs to drive through the middle of my wreck scene agrees with MY assessment of the situation. It's a shame I haven't saved the videos of some of my traffic directing scenes, but let me relate a few true stories for your evaluation:

I was working a wreck at the base of the Woodlands Parkway northbound flyover. We had two patrol cars (with VERY bright lightbars) and several wreckers blocking the ramp while we tried to clear the wreckage out of there before we all got killed. Now, when you drive up on police cars and wreckers with lightbars on and blocking a ramp with two smashed-up cars sideways across the ramp, do you need a cop standing out there waving you around the scene, or are you intelligent enough to drive around all of the car parts and strobes? Well, the moron who tried to drive between one of the wrecked cars and the concrete wall eighteen inches from that car at seventy-something miles per hour (after SQUEAKING between that wall and my car at seventy-something miles per hour) thinks I needed to be out there waving at him;I guess my body would have cushioned the impact some.  What the hell, he's from The Woodlands and he needs to take that flyover. Not his fault his parents didn't have any kids that lived.

TDCJ bus full of convicted felons (40-some-odd of 'em) enroute to Houston courts. Bus breaks down southbound mainlanes. TDCJ sending another. We're all out there guarding the busful of freezing Bubbas. It's dark (about 5am) and the temperature is in the 40's. We're waiting for the inevitable moron who will pull up next to the bus (looking like he's gonna help'em escape) and ask (in his best Gomer Pyle voice) "What's goin' on, fellers?" See a problem there? Well, the backup bus arrives and we need to shut down the left lane of the four-lane service road while we do the transfer (trust me, it was necessary -we didn't do it just to ruin everybody's day) So, here we are on a four-lane, straight and level roadway. The speed limit is 45mph (and the AVERAGE SPEED OF ALL VEHICLES ON THAT ROADWAY, PER AUTOMATED MONITORS, IS 18mph over the limit). We have a whole lotta popo cars lined up with their twinklies flashing up a storm. You can see us a mile away (literally) on this straight road on this clear morning; it's an awesome light show! All of our "Gotta get to work first" crowd is whizzing by at freeway speed on the service road as we guard the transfer. Now, would you need a cop standing in the dark waving at you as you drive up on a whole lotta police cars (flashing up a storm) stopped in the left lane, next to a whole lotta cops standing around with AR-15s and shotguns, next to two TDCJ buses transferring prisoners, just to direct you over to the next lane? Numerous morons ran right up to the cars and slammed on the brakes; several barely avoided rear-ending the cars. I recall one who barely stopped in time; he was less than two feet from my back bumper. He laid on the horn and with his car still rocking from the stop, slung out his arms in the old, 'What the hell are you doing in my way?' gesture while giving me his best look of righteous indignation. If this high-class Woodlands millionaire can't see all of those strobes in the dark, what makes you think he'd see an officer standing out there waving at him? This kind of driver is why cops don't get out in the road and direct traffic when they don't really need to. This kind of driver, wandering around, lost in a cellular phone or texting someone while at the wheel, with no regard for anyone's safety or any respect for enforcement, is becoming more and more common, at least in my corner of the world.

When you have four marked cars with their lightbars on blocking the four lanes of the service road at a bad wreck, and it's dark outside, do I need to be standing there waving at those cars to get them to stop? Because some of them WILL (and I have seen it more than once) attempt to drive through that roadblock without slowing down. And me standing out there waving at them WON'T make a difference. I can tell you this: in my city if we need to be directing traffic at a scene, we will be. And as we do so, more and more frequently, we will be jumping out of the way of dumbasses who are in too much of a hurry to stop or go around, and listening to those dumbasses' sad stories about how it's all someone else's fault that he/she is driving around with his/her head up his/her Cranberries.

Our society is changing, and the new order emerging espouses less respect for rules or enforcement, and shifting accountability for one's actions to society in general. I know you aren't slamming all cops, but just because you have some friends in LE doesn't mean you know the job. One of the things I've noticed about law enforcement is that there are more experts on how to do our job than there are for any other profession. What's amazing is how few of those experts have any law enforcement training or experience.

[hooter]

DAMN GOOD REPLY JIM

[icopus]

DAMN GOOD REPLY JIM

I completely agree.  Very well articulated!  You, hipshot, are a diamond in the rough.  I've never met an LE of your caliber.  I hope to meet you one day and have a real talk.  I'm sure you could help this LE disenchanted civilian understand the finer points to the job, its purpose, its failings, and its rewards.

The LEOs I knew were fairly new to the force, so I'm sure that was a major factor in their thinking and attitudes at the time I knew them.  You, on the other hand, sound like an old salt and refreshingly well adjusted for having such a demanding and stressful job.   

I easily see your point about intersections.  The complexities of monitoring intersections and ticketing violators must be enormous.  BUT, I've seen my share of light runners.  It's damn scary.  I've also read and heard too many tragic stories involving light runners maiming and killing innocent cagers and motorcyclists.  Perhaps that's why I'm so concerned about monitoring intersections.

EVERYTIME I'm on the road, I encounter speeders by the dozens.  Yes, I freely admit, including yours truly.     Yet, relatively few of them are having accidents.  I imagine that the percentage of light runners involved in serious accidents are WAY more than speeders involved in serious accidents.  Therefore, I must applaud ANY effort towards monitoring intersections.  I wish there could have been better efforts made before the countless victims had suffered at those intersections.   

Therefore, I remain on the platform that if the authorities, (ok, not necessarily LEO), were TRULY concerned about the publics safety, efforts would have been made before the age of low cost digital electronics.  But instead, around here they keep having "Seat Belt Your Kid Enforcement Weekends".  Give me a break. 

Oh, and yes... we, the untrained do tend to tell others how to do their job.  Its what we all do - sort of like armchair quarterbacking.     But, I also think most are actually trying to help, (not including those who are receiving a citation at the time    ).  We're not telling you guys HOW to do things, just what needs to be addressed.  Often, its our tone that needs work and we therefore, get ignored.  Example - "Why aren't you catching REAL criminals instead of harrassing me?!?!"     I KNOW you've heard that one.  Well, really, why aren't you? (said in a light, uplifting tone).   

Thanks again, hipshot, for the exchange.  Please, if you will indulge me - please post more 'war' stories.   

Take care, my friend.

[hipshot]

I appreciate the compliment, but I'm not a diamond in the rough. I've been a cop for over twenty years, so I've learned a few things about the job. There are thousands of guys and girls just like me behind the badge. Some are smarter, some are nicer, and a whole lot of them are better looking than me. And yes, there are a few jerks too. We don't like them any more than you do.

[icopus]

Please take this as a compliment when I say that your maturity on the job shows.  I'm sure it will be a pleasure should we ever meet... hopefully outside the job.   

For the record, of all the times I've been stopped for various reasons, I've met maybe three LEOs that were personable.  Through no fault of their own, they all gave me citations.     I've had several warnings from those who lack personality and the ONE cop I yelled at, he let me go.  He wouldn't give me a chance to explain and kept interrupting me.  So, I was naturally (not angrily, but out of frustration) getting louder as was he.  I finally yelled that I was not arguing, just trying to be understood.  I honestly was not trying to get off, and at that point, wouldn't have even considered the notion.  But, on hearing the explanation, he let me off.  Surprising how it works sometimes.

We all have our jerks to work with.  Unfortunately, this trait is not exclusive to bosses.

[hooter]

Please take this as a compliment when I say that your maturity on the job shows.  I'm sure it will be a pleasure should we ever meet...

Buttering up, flatery, nor the secret TXR hand shake will get you out of a ticket with Jim.

[icopus]

Hey, hooter!  Sssssssshhhhhhh!!!!!










 

[RD]

Here's a good example. How far of the road do these guys need to be?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f4d_1192185888

[hipshot]

That only happened because the amber light was timed too quick so the city could make money off of it .

Tonight I was coming home from helping a friend in Grimes County. It was raining and dark and I was on the X, coming through Dobbin on SH105. I was about fifth back in a line of vehicles. We came up on a Sheriff's deputy out on a traffic stop on the right shoulder; he had the occupants out of the vehicle he had stopped and was standing next to the car. As we all know, state law requires that passing traffic either vacate the lane adjacent to the emergency vehicle, or slow to at least 20mph below the posted speed limit -- 60mph in this case. The pack of vehicles I was in was running just under 70mph when we came upon the SO unit. They never slowed, and there was not another lane to move over to. I slowed to 40, and the pickup behind me ran right up on my rear end; it was obvious that he was pissed that I had slowed. He stayed right there, about 1/4 second off my back bumper on the wet road, as we passed the SO unit. As we went by I revved the ole Roadhouse Shorty and laid on the Stebel horn. The deputy naturally looked in our direction; the pickup backed off after that. I'll bet you a couple of paychecks that if the driver of that pickup had lost control and hit me, or that sheriff's deputy, or the vehicle/occupants the deputy had stopped, he would have come up with a story that would make it someone else's fault. I'll also bet that he would have found a prostitute to take his case all the way to the Supreme Court.

[RD]

Just heard on the news tonight that another officer was side-swiped by a car.